Car Died!

[rx8ghost]

Does anyone have an OBDII Scanner I could use tonight? My car is throwing a cel and it won't start.

[RX-7 Chris]

What the hell happened

[GR-8]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RX 8 Ghost @ Mar 5 2008, 04:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=30132)</div>Does anyone have an OBDII Scanner I could use tonight? My car is throwing a cel and it won't start.[/b]
Umm. Want to pick me up and drive me down there and back up. That doesn't sound good at all. Go by checkers and see if they will loan one out. Leave you're credit card with them or something.

[rx8ghost]

It just randomly died at idle after running perfectly fine and then wouldn't start up.

[GR-8]

So you guys had it working again...and it just caput. Did you find anything out on 8 Club last night? MM get back to you at all?

[rx8ghost]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Greek8 @ Mar 5 2008, 04:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=30138)</div>So you guys had it working again...and it just caput. Did you find anything out on 8 Club last night? MM get back to you at all?[/b]

Yes. Yes. No.

[RX-7 Chris]

I think it is an ecu problem. It is freaking out because of all the changes.

[rx8ghost]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RX-7 Chris @ Mar 5 2008, 05:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=30141)</div>I think it is an ecu problem. It is freaking out because of all the changes.[/b]

That's what I was thinking to but I can't tell without an OBDII Scanner :(

[RX-7 Chris]

Have you tried disconecting the battery?

[GR-8]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RX-7 Chris @ Mar 5 2008, 05:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=30141)</div>I think it is an ecu problem. It is freaking out because of all the changes.[/b]
But the e-manage should be taking care of that....right? Unless E-manage is completely locked until drifter gets that serial from Greddy?

[rx8ghost]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RX-7 Chris @ Mar 5 2008, 05:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=30143)</div>Have you tried disconecting the battery?[/b]

Ask Drifter

[SpeedRacer]

Why ask drifter? It's ur car? I'm lost...

[RX-7 Chris]

It is at drifter's house now and he is working on it.

[SpeedRacer]

OOOHH okay makes sense now.

[arctic_blue83]

I have an OBD II scanner, but unfortunately I'm pretty far north of the Springs :(

Have you guys tried removing the eManage to see how the car would react? Really there's only a couple sensors that should effect your idle, your MAF & MAP.... I'm assuming the eManage would have to manipulate one of their values in order to alter your fuel trim. Where is your MAF sensor now located? Still right behind the filter/where the airbox used to be, or post turbo (<<rare, but I've seen weirder)?

[GR-8]

Did you get the scanner yet?

[rx8ghost]

Ok so it'll start up fine and rev up fine but we aren't taking it anywhere till I get the CEL codes checked. E-Manage is unlocked with Greddy's most current map for the 8 and the logger isn't showing any weird jumps at idle nor while revving so as of now I'm holding off on anything till we get the CEL read.

[GR-8]

So your going to checkers, autozone, pepboys....to get a loaner Scanner?

[rx8ghost]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Greek8 @ Mar 5 2008, 07:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=30193)</div>So your going to checkers, autozone, pepboys....to get a loaner Scanner?[/b]

Drifter said he found one but if not then yes I'll do that.

[MS3_Mafia]

Hope you get it all figured by Saturday so we could see your 8!

[arctic_blue83]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RX 8 Ghost @ Mar 5 2008, 07:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=30192)</div>Ok so it'll start up fine and rev up fine but we aren't taking it anywhere till I get the CEL codes checked. E-Manage is unlocked with Greddy's most current map for the 8 and the logger isn't showing any weird jumps at idle nor while revving so as of now I'm holding off on anything till we get the CEL read.[/b]

When you do an ECU reset do the codes go away, or do they just go away momentarily and return shortly after?

Drifter told me what happened... and honestly, after checking the codes, I would highly consider having compression checked on the motor to make sure no permanent damage was done. From what I understand, someone accidentally switched a vacuum line normally coming off of your intake with one of the coolant lines that normally goes to your throttle body... obviously, there's a good chance coolant was being sucked into your motor, which would explain your rough idle, and if the color of the smoke it was spewing was white, that would make total sense.

That's also one of the reasons why I asked Drifter if the CEL was ever flashing while you guys were driving... as on most OBDII cars, a flashing CEL would indicate a misfire.... and often times, a misfire can be caused by a loss in compression. Injecting a solid liquid stream into your motor, can cause somewhat of a hydrolock case, in your case, there's a possibility of it damaging an apex seal, especially if you guys made any WOT passes.

There's a chance that *maybe* you just flooded the motor, and that you might be able to just drain & burn off the excess, that the motor might be fine, but either way, still get a compression test done. Is the car still billowing smoke while running? If so, what color smoke? White would mean it's typically burning coolant, black would mean it's running too rich/burning too much fuel and blue would mean you're burning oil.

[RX-7 Chris]

Could you pull the plugs and take a look at them? That might give you an idea of what might be wrong. As hard as this might seem. Post what they look like.

[RX-7drifter]

i can check those today or when rob gets off work we can do that

[OpacRX]

whats the status? you all get it going?

[GR-8]

Any news on what the CEL was?

[RX-7drifter]

nothing new yet just got all the coolant infested oil out and new in, also the air to fuel ratio needs to be ajusted

[GR-8]

Way to Quadruple post.

[RX-7drifter]

don't know how i did that

[GR-8]

You hit the ADD REPLY button 4 times.

[RX-7 Chris]

Any updates on the car?

[arctic_blue83]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RX-7drifter @ Mar 6 2008, 05:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=30505)</div>nothing new yet just got all the coolant infested oil out and new in, also the air to fuel ratio needs to be ajusted[/b]

Does he have a wideband O2 installed? By "adjusted", I'm assuming you mean the car is running too rich?

[RX-7 Chris]

No wideband. The exhaust smells bad like gas is what I have heard.

[RX-7drifter]

no O2 sensor yet

[RX-7 Chris]

fixed yet?

[RX-7drifter]

nope need the wide bann O2

[RX-7 Chris]

What's the holdup?

[RX-7drifter]

Rob needs to get the part

[arctic_blue83]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RX-7drifter @ Mar 7 2008, 10:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=30657)</div>nope need the wide bann O2[/b]

If he's spending cash on a WB02, he could always just pay the guy's at Revolutions to tune the car with a tailpipe WB02 on their dyno.... just an idea. Who's tuning the car? If you guys are road tuning yourselves, I would recommend a few gauges, or at least the ability to datalog with a WB02, a boost gauge (hopefully you can datalog boost as well), an EGT gauge, and if you can, at least tap into the factory knock sensor (not sure if eManage can log knock count).

[RX-7 Chris]

At this point I would have someone else tune it as well.

[RX-7drifter]

tuning has started yet once the wide ban gets here than tuneing will start and RP won't tune the Emanage talk to them many times about that and they said no, and with the knock sensor i dont think the Emange picks that up

[rx8ghost]

I don't have an EGT or WBO2 gauge but I do have all the other gauges. I'm gonna try and get the WBO2 tonight hopefully.

[arctic_blue83]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RX-7drifter @ Mar 7 2008, 10:51 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=30667)</div>tuning has started yet once the wide ban gets here than tuneing will start and RP won't tune the Emanage talk to them many times about that and they said no, and with the knock sensor i dont think the Emange picks that up[/b]

The guys at Revolution's won't tune an eManage? Wow... that's a shock... did they say why not? I've heard some not-so-good things about the eManage, but I didn't think they would flat out refuse. So I have a few questions if you don't mind? Here goes:

1. What kind of boost numbers are you going to tune for? I'm assuming around the 5-7psi mark?

2. Are you touching the factory timing tables? Me personally, at this point, I would leave them alone, at least until you get a knock sensor or find a way to piggyback off the stock knock sensor.

3. What AFR's are you planning on tuning for? Not sure what kind of AFR's people usually tune turbo rotaries for... I've only tuned turbo & NA inline, V's & boxers.... typically, EVO/DSM guys can tune as lean as 12:1 (some go farther) on pump gas without knock, whereas boxers have to be tuned a little more conservatively, most try and keep AFR's between 10.8-11.2:1 on WRX/STI's. Either way, keep in conservative.

4. Is he just getting a WBO2 gauge, or a WB that can connect to the eManage and log?

5. I've never worked with an eManage, is it just a basic load siting vs RPM table? Or does it site based on TPS ect?



I'm pretty far away... but if you guys could limp the car up here, I might know someone who would tune an eManage if Revolutions won't. If you guys need help, shoot me a PM and I'll see what I can do.

[RX-7 Chris]

Rotories can't run that lean. You need to keep in a littile on the rich side. With these cars it is better to waist fuel than burn up a motor. If you are to lean, these motors will detonate and blow an apex seal.

[rx8ghost]

1. What kind of boost numbers are you going to tune for? I'm assuming around the 5-7psi mark?
Yes exactly. With the turbo and stock fuel system I don't dare push anymore.

2. Are you touching the factory timing tables? Me personally, at this point, I would leave them alone, at least until you get a knock sensor or find a way to piggyback off the stock knock sensor. The E-Manage won't touch the timing table nor would I haha

3. What AFR's are you planning on tuning for? Not sure what kind of AFR's people usually tune turbo rotaries for... I've only tuned turbo & NA inline, V's & boxers.... typically, EVO/DSM guys can tune as lean as 12:1 (some go farther) on pump gas without knock, whereas boxers have to be tuned a little more conservatively, most try and keep AFR's between 10.8-11.2:1 on WRX/STI's. Either way, keep in conservative.
I'm shooting for an 11.8:1~ I've heard that's the best for the set up.

4. Is he just getting a WBO2 gauge, or a WB that can connect to the eManage and log?
I'm gonna get one to connect to the E-manage so I can log it. You said the LC-1 would do that?

5. I've never worked with an eManage, is it just a basic load siting vs RPM table? Or does site based on TPS ect?
It's basically just an injector map based on RPM ranges.

[arctic_blue83]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RX-7 Chris @ Mar 7 2008, 11:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=30670)</div>Rotories can't run that lean. You need to keep in a littile on the rich side. With these cars it is better to waist fuel than burn up a motor. If you are to lean, these motors will detonate and blow an apex seal.[/b]

I agree completely!! In the world on WRX/STI's, boxer motors don't dissipate heat as well as inlines, so we have to tune pretty rich as well, around the 10.8-11.2:1 mark, or else we can run the risk of cranking a ringland (more commonly on cylinder #4).





<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RX 8 Ghost @ Mar 7 2008, 11:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=30671)</div>1. Yes exactly. With the turbo and stock fuel system I don't dare push anymore.

2. The E-Manage won't touch the timing table nor would I haha

3. I'm shooting for an 11.8:1~ I've heard that's the best for the set up.

4. I'm gonna get one to connect to the E-manage so I can log it. You said the LC-1 would do that?

5. It's basically just an injector map based on RPM ranges.[/b]

1. I agree, didn't know you were still on the stock fuel system. Remember though, pushing 5psi up here is going to result in slightly higher IAT's (intake air temperatures) than it would on a car at sea level, since the turbo is going to have to work harder to create the same pressure due to the lower density of the air here.

2. So the eManage can't even modify timing? So it's basically just like a SAFC or DTEC... is it going to be controlling a BCS for the turbo? Or are you running a seperate boost controller?

3. I don't know what people usually tune turbo rotaries for, but a couple of things to keep in mind... first of all, who says that? What altitude are they at, and what octane fuel are they using? The fuel part being more important, as 93 octane has a higher resistance to detonation than 91 octane, meaning the higher the octane of the fuel, the leaner you can tune the car. Also, like mentioned above, it's better to run rich and burn excess fuel than to run lean and blow a motor.

4. I only assume the LC-1 is compatible with the eManage only based upon Chris running one. Do you know if you have the basic e-Manage or the e-Manage Ultimate? He mentioned he was running the Ultimate, so I'm assuming the LC-1 works with the Ultimate (EMU), but obviously, the basic e-Manage might not support the same features.

5. Injector map based on RPM? So, like IDC's vs RPM? What are your IDC's at right now? According to this, if you only have the e-Manage basic:
http://www.greddy.com/products/display/?Ca...;SubCategory=48 (http://www.greddy.com/products/display/?Category=electronics&SubCategory=48)
You would only have 5 preset RPM alteration points... that's too much space in-between for me. There's also no mention of WB compatibility.. but it looks like it came with the EMU, in which case, the LC-1 should be just fine, and also seems as though you will have more RPM altering points, and mentions that in can in fact alter ignition/timing tables:
http://www.greddy.com/products/display/?Ca...;SubCategory=47 (http://www.greddy.com/products/display/?Category=electronics&SubCategory=47)

6. Why the hell did Revolution's not want to tune your car again? Still a bit baffled..

[rx8ghost]

1. I've got a new fuel system on the way and I don't really trust the turbo to boost more than 5-7PSI.

2. Nope the E-Manage won't touch timing just injectors and I'm running a Forge manual boost controller

3. Ppl on Rx8Club seem to be running 11:1 that's why I said 11.8:1 or higher. If I'm not mistaken E-manage aims for a 12:1.

4. I have EMU and that's what I'm basing the LC-1 compatabilty off of Chris also haha

5. EMU allows you to set the RPM range you want to use so you can have as many or as little points as you want. I guess it depends on the laziness of the tuner haha

6. It wasn't my car that was the problem it's E-Manage. I've heard different reviews about it but I've got someone who's going to street tune it for me. (Only because we don't have access to a dyno)

[arctic_blue83]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RX 8 Ghost @ Mar 7 2008, 12:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=30685)</div>1. I've got a new fuel system on the way and I don't really trust the turbo to boost more than 5-7PSI.

2. Nope the E-Manage won't touch timing just injectors and I'm running a Forge manual boost controller

3. Ppl on Rx8Club seem to be running 11:1 that's why I said 11.8:1 or higher. If I'm not mistaken E-manage aims for a 12:1.

4. I have EMU and that's what I'm basing the LC-1 compatabilty off of Chris also haha

5. EMU allows you to set the RPM range you want to use so you can have as many or as little points as you want. I guess it depends on the laziness of the tuner haha

6. It wasn't my car that was the problem it's E-Manage. I've heard different reviews about it but I've got someone who's going to street tune it for me. (Only because we don't have access to a dyno)[/b]

1. What I'm saying was not about pushing more boost, higher IAT's are more dangerous... if anything, I was warning that pushing the same boost pressures as the guy's at sea level would be more dangerous, since they'll have lower (safer) IAT's and typically higher octane fuel.

3. Just a quick FYI, 11.8:1 is LEANER than 11:1... if it helps clarify, it's referring to air molecules:fuel molecules.... if you wanted to tune richer (read: safer) than 11:1, an AFR like 10.8:1 would be richer. If the EMU targets 12:1, that's pretty effin lean for a turbo rotary IMO, but then again, I could be wrong, as I haven't played with too many rotaries.

5. Badass. That's the best way to go about it. I like tuning from the onset of boost, based on about 250rpm increments, but to each their own.

6. That's what I'm asking... why wouldn't they tune an e-Manage? It's a popular system, kind of hard for me to imagine a shop as large as they are that wouldn't tune such a popular system... although, if you have someone who knows how to tune, and need access to a dyno, most dyno shops will let you rent dyno self-tuning time if that's the route you choose to take. Good luck!

[rx8ghost]

Thanks for all your advice. I owe the club a huge hand with this whole thing.

[SpeedRacer]

Thats cool just buy us all pizza at dyno day :P 20 pizza's plz. j/k I didn't do shit :(

[RX-7drifter]

josh you a;ways do shit :D

[Those Meddling Kids]

We don't tune emanage because it is not a reliable and consistant platform. The tune will change for no reason and it does not compensate for temperature and altitude changes. We do not feel that we can give someone a safe tune with we can stand behind when the system is not consistant. With that in mind we pretty much stay away from most piggyback ecus such as Utec, Unichip, Emanage, Perfect Power and the like. I've tuned them all before and there is nothing better than flashing the factory ecu or getting a full standalone for reliability, repeatability, and maximum power. In my opinion it is unwise to run Forced Induction on a vehicle that does not having a solution for tuning ignition timing. There are two major parts to tuning any engine- Fuel and Spark. To leave timing unchanged and too far advanced is asking for trouble. That being said- you can rent the dyno for as long as you like- It's $100/hr.

[arctic_blue83]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Revolutions Performance @ Mar 7 2008, 05:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=30737)</div>We don't tune emanage because it is not a reliable and consistant platform. The tune will change for no reason and it does not compensate for temperature and altitude changes. We do not feel that we can give someone a safe tune with we can stand behind when the system is not consistant. With that in mind we pretty much stay away from most piggyback ecus such as Utec, Unichip, Emanage, Perfect Power and the like. I've tuned them all before and there is nothing better than flashing the factory ecu or getting a full standalone for reliability, repeatability, and maximum power. In my opinion it is unwise to run Forced Induction on a vehicle that does not having a solution for tuning ignition timing. There are two major parts to tuning any engine- Fuel and Spark. To leave timing unchanged and too far advanced is asking for trouble. That being said- you can rent the dyno for as long as you like- It's $100/hr.[/b]

That makes sense. Although I'm with you, in preferring flash based tuning (Accessport, ECUtek, Open Source ect), I've owned and worked on other people's cars running UTEC's in the past, and my former Mazdaspeed 6 that I ran a simple DTEC on, that have been pretty damn consistent. With my Speed6, I used to frequent a certain local dyno, and went months apart between dyno pulls after tuning, only to see my AFR's were identical. I've seen similar results from a couple WRX's running UTEC's, where their AFR's stayed consistent over long periods of time. Not to say that's true for every car, I know RX-8's have picky ECU's that like to revert back to stock tunes over the course of time, but I have seen otherwise.

With that said, I completely understand where you're coming from. I guess I've been spoiled, I've mostly been around factory turbo'd cars here lately, with pretty advanced timing multipliers, so never really had to touch ignition timing too much, as car's like the Mazdaspeed 3/6 are incredibly adept at keeping timing advanced, and retarding it in the case of knock, only to re-advance timing after sensing no knock over the course of a few driving cycles. I completely understand what you mean about keeping timing too far advanced on a NA vehicle that's been turbocharged, I only assumed the RX-8s finicky ECU would pull timing accordingly in the event of it sensing knock. For overall safety, I agree it's safer to pull timing beforehand, and advance slowly while monitoring a knock sensor. Most of the guys I used to associate with were fairly old-school, they mostly just tuned to the point of knock, then pulled 2 degrees of timing.

Your reasoning is sound, and again I understand completely now. The fact you guys stand behind your tunes to that extent is admirable, and respectable. From the nightmare stories I've heard about RX-8's reverting to stock tunes after long tuning sessions, I probably wouldn't want to touch a turbo'd RX-8 with a piggyback either. Or at least not without giving a very solemn disclaimer lol. Thank you for taking the time to post, with a completely understandable explanation. It's truly appreciated.



That being said, to Ghost, eventually, you should opt for a more permanent solution of tuning. I haven't looked into the aftermarket for the RX-8, but I'm pretty sure there's no open source or licensed tuning software available at the time, and standalones aren't usually cheap, and can be difficult to install in some cases... what I would consider, for simplicity sake, is in the future picking up an Accessport since Cobb just released them. In typical Cobb fashion, I'm sure that in the coming months, they should be releasing Pro/Street tuner software, which would allow you to properly tune the car for your specific application... just my opinion, but if it was my car, that's probably the route I would take, unless you can get an incredibly good deal on a good standalone, but even then, just for the sake of simplicity, I would rather flash the stock ECU. Something to keep in mind.

[OpacRX]

any updates? is it still craping out?

[RX-7drifter]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (OpacRX @ Mar 10 2008, 12:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=31209)</div>any updates? is it still craping out?[/b]


still loss in compersion but it ran today and got down to fort carson as far as i know

[SpeedRacer]

so a compression test was done and there is an issue?

[RX-7drifter]

that is getting done tomarrow at the hobby shop

[GR-8]

Get those ignition coils checked out to. Hope there's nothing major found tomorrow. Fingers crossed.

[Huzer21]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (arctic_blue83 @ Mar 8 2008, 01:51 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=30824)</div>That being said, to Ghost, eventually, you should opt for a more permanent solution of tuning. I haven't looked into the aftermarket for the RX-8, but I'm pretty sure there's no open source or licensed tuning software available at the time, and standalones aren't usually cheap, and can be difficult to install in some cases... what I would consider, for simplicity sake, is in the future picking up an Accessport since Cobb just released them. In typical Cobb fashion, I'm sure that in the coming months, they should be releasing Pro/Street tuner software, which would allow you to properly tune the car for your specific application... just my opinion, but if it was my car, that's probably the route I would take, unless you can get an incredibly good deal on a good standalone, but even then, just for the sake of simplicity, I would rather flash the stock ECU. Something to keep in mind.[/b]

There are already AP maps for FI out there, believe it or not.

And Ghost, good luck with the car today.